Professors Form 'Wilson Initiative' to Promote Independence of Catalonia

Professors Form 'Wilson Initiative' to Promote Independence of Catalonia

"The scholars—five economists and a political scientist from Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, the London School of Economics and prominent institutions—call themselves the Wilson Initiative, after U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, a champion of national self-determination."

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The Wall Street Journal

Europe News

Catalan Academics Press Separatist Drive

Professors Form 'Wilson Initiative' to Promote Independence from Spain

By

Matt Moffett

connect

Jan. 24, 2014 7:04 p.m. ET

 

BARCELONA—In the sulfurous debate over the future of Spain's wealthy Catalonia region, Xavier Sala-i-Martin is the most notable and quotable member of a self-styled truth squad of pro-independence Catalan economists.

When the head of the American Chamber of Commerce in Spain warned in October that talk of a breakup was making foreign investors skittish, Mr. Sala-i-Martin retorted on Catalan radio that Spain was a "midget market" and globalized Catalonia would thrive on its own.

Amid rumors that elderly Catalans would lose their public pensions in a split, the economist went on his blog to assail the talk as a lie, adding that an independent Catalonia might be able to raise pensions by 10%.

"Since 1800, 22 former Spanish colonies have become independent," said Mr. Sala-i-Martin, a Columbia University professor who co-wrote an economics textbook and helped develop the Global Competitiveness Report for this past week's World Economic Forum in Davos. "None of them regrets it."

Mr. Sala-i-Martin is one of six respected Catalan academics who have stepped from the ivory tower into a political battle with high stakes for Spain and the rest of the European Union—including its common currency. 

Economist Xavier Sala-i-Martin EFE/Zuma Press
 

They are high-profile protagonists in a long-running public debate over what Catalonia, the so-called factory of Spain, could gain or lose from breaking away.

Buoyed by polls showing majority support for secession, the Catalan parliament in Barcelona this month voted to hold a referendum on Nov. 9. The central government in Madrid has vowed to block a vote, which it says would be unconstitutional, but that hasn't quieted the debate.

On blogs, in interviews and in meetings with business and citizen groups, the six academics argue that Spain's system of sharing tax revenues among the 17 regions shortchanges Catalonia by about €16 billion ($22 billion) annually. That amounts to more than €2,000 per inhabitant, or around 8% of Catalonia's output, based on public tax and investment data, the academics say.

They argue that the northeastern region of 7.5 million people could become not only a viable country, but quite possibly an economic juggernaut.

Catalonia, which has a distinctive culture and language, has long had a strained relationship with Madrid, but the collapse of Spain's economy in 2008 has left regions scrambling for resources and brought tensions to a boil.

The scholars—five economists and a political scientist from Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, the London School of Economics and prominent institutions—call themselves the Wilson Initiative, after U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, a champion of national self-determination.

While acknowledging their influence, some other economists say the big-name professors overstate the potential benefits of independence while understating the transition costs and the risk that Spain could splinter further.

The critics note that while sales of goods from Catalan companies to the rest of the world—€58 billion in 2012—surpassed their €49 billion in sales to the rest of Spain that year, Spain still accounts for a massive chunk.

Mr. Sala-i-Martin "did serious work once but he's become frivolous," said Francesc Trillas, an economist at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, who favors giving Catalonia greater autonomy but not independence.

Mr. Sala-i-Martin says he has gotten inured to criticism from opponents of independence, and that the "tons of hate" he gets from Spanish nationalists on Twitter TWTR -1.69% and elsewhere is a small price for the gratification he got when he heard elderly callers on Catalan talk radio quoting his arguments.

"I translate complicated concepts for regular people to understand," he said.

In addition to serving as go-to economist for the local media, Mr. Sala-i-Martin is also widely known for his connection to the Barcelona soccer club, where he once served as treasurer. His wardrobe of 200 brightly colored jackets garner additional attention. "I didn't want to be a slave to fashion so I invented my own," he explains.

Activists for Catalan independence say he lends intellectual legitimacy to their cause. "Spain is trying to frighten Catalans about the economic consequences of independence, but Sala-i-Martin is able to rebut those arguments with numbers and the authority of his position," said Eduardo Reyes, head of a pro-independence group called Sumate.

The Wilson Initiative has drawn the attention of economists elsewhere, though few publicly embrace its arguments.

"If you were to ask in which ways economists today are having the most influence on the world, this movement would be close to the top of the list," George Mason University economist Tyler Cowen wrote in his widely read "Marginal Revolution" blog. 

But he added: "I am still waiting to hear why Catalonian independence wouldn't bring the fiscal death knell of current Spain, and thus also the collapse of current euro-zone arrangements and perhaps also a euro-zone-wide depression."

Other analysts say some of the Wilson academics too often speak as Catalans first and economists second.

Luis Garicano, a professor at the London School of Economics from central Spain, said exchanges about Catalonia on the blog he founded were "some of the least pleasant and most aggressive debates we have ever had…as emotions quickly ruled the discussion." 

He also favors more autonomy without independence.

In an interview, Mr. Sala-i-Martin said it is too late to patch up the relationship with Spain and that Catalans "aren't going to be satisfied with accepting some cookie crumbs from Madrid."

Thus, the moment for independence is now, he insists.

Spanish government officials have said they are vigorously pursuing all wrongdoing that comes to light, and Spain's institutions are stronger for their efforts.

Similar economic issues are being debated in other separatist-minded regions. Scotland is set to vote on independence from the U.K. in September.

Top EU officials have stated repeatedly that any part of any member state that becomes independent would be automatically outside the EU. If it wanted to join, its application would have to be ratified by the rest.

Mr. Sala-i-Martin said the EU would be hard-pressed to follow through on such tough talk since the many large European companies with operations in Catalonia would resist the loss of free-trade benefits. Many Spanish exporters also need to pass through Catalonia to get their goods to Northern Europe, he noted.

"If Spain imposes barriers, there's going to be thousands of kilometers lined with tomatoes rotting on roads trying to get into Catalonia," he said.

While the economics are hotly contested, no one disputes Mr. Sala-i-Martin's academic credentials. "This guy knows a lot about economic growth and I can testify he's good at it," said Nobel Prize laureate Robert Lucas of the University of Chicago. As for the independence issue, Mr. Lucas said, "I'm not going to touch that."

Matt Moffett (The Wall Street Journal)

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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304632204579336673963940580?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304632204579336673963940580.html 

How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe - Atlantic Council

January 16, 2014

How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe

By Paul R. Williams and Roushani Mansoor

Catalonia's President Artur Mas waves to supporters after voting in the regional parliament to send a petition for referendum to the national parliament, in Barcelona, January 16, 2014. Local lawmakers in the northeastern Spanish region of Catalonia voted to seek a referendum on breaking away from Spain on Thursday, setting themselves up for a battle with an implacably opposed central government in Madrid. The Catalan Parliament in Barcelona voted 87 to 43, with 3 abstentions, to send a petition to the national parliament seeking the power to call a popular vote on the region's future. The independence movement in Catalonia, which has its own language and represents a fifth of Spain's national economy, is a direct challenge to Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy, who has pledged to block a referendum on constitutional grounds. REUTERS/Albert Gea

Today’s vote by the legislature of the Spanish region of Catalonia to formally petition Spain’s government to authorize a referendum on Catalonian independence is a reminder that Europe will face a challenge this year for which it seems unready. Even though Spain has firmly opposed the referendum, the Catalonians are sure to press ahead. This fall, both Catalonia and Scotland are likely to hold referenda on whether to become independent states. Europe is treating the issue of independence as an internal matter for Spain and the United Kingdom – a mistake that risks cracking the continent’s delicate unity. 

Scotland will hold its vote with the consent of the United Kingdom. The two governments are negotiating over how to manage the political and economic uncertainty and strain resulting from the referendum itself, and the possibility of an independent Scotland.

Catalonia’s regional administration last month announced a November date for its referendum, which the Spanish government of Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy immediately vowed to block. Yet Catalonia continues to move toward a unilateral declaration of independence. The separatist movement has sustained its momentum since it organized a massive demonstration in Barcelona in 2012 that led the region’s parliament, days later, to approve a resolution affirming Catalonia’s right to declare independence.

It will be Europe, in the end, that decides whether Catalonia will be an independent state. The continent's phobia of self-determination and its lack of any coherent approach to newly independent states leaves it ill-prepared to make this decision, which will strain the very foundation of Europe.

Spain and Catalonia are locked in a legal debate over Catalonia's right to hold a referendum and declare independence. While Catalonian regional premier Athur Mas has listed legal arguments that permit a referendum, Prime Minister Rajoy vows to use the Spanish courts to block what he considers an unconstitutional vote. For Europe, this domestic legal debate is largely irrelevant. If Catalonians choose independence, they will seek international recognition as an independent state based on the will of the people, not on provisions of the Spanish constitution.

International law neither permits nor prohibits the holding of referenda by aspiring states. Under international law, a state must have a territory with a population subject to the control of a government – criteria that Catalonia will meet. It also must be sovereign, meaning that other states must recognize it as independent. This is how the Catalonian issue will be owned by the other European states.

For two decades, Europe has avoided developing a common, or even coherent, policy on recognition. Many in Europe still believe Germany ignited the war in Yugoslavia by its premature recognition of Croatia in January 1991. The European Union's failure to deal with Northern Cyprus has created a half-member EU state where all Cypriots are EU citizens, but only half the country is governed by EU laws and regulations. Kosovo is in international limbo. It is recognized by 103 countries, excluding five EU member states, and maintains stabilization and integration agreements with the EU. It is a member of the World Bank and IMF, but not the United Nations.

When Catalonia asks for recognition, Europe will be ill-prepared to answer. This is dangerous.

Europe as a whole is unlikely to deny recognition to Catalonia. That would create a frozen conflict in the core of Europe that will drain political capital and economic resources of an economically fragile Spain. In many European states, non-recognition would be perceived as anti-democratic. It will be extremely difficult to justify, given that more than two dozen states have achieved recognition in the past twenty years, and that Scotland is likely to join that list.

Europe as a whole also is unlikely to recognize Catalonia as independent and admit it to the European Union. That move would encourage further referenda in Belgium, Cyprus, Slovakia, Romania, and possibly Italy.

Europe likely will fail to develop a common approach, with some states recognizing Catalonia, and others denying recognition. The international community then will follow the pattern. In this case, Europe will suffer both consequences, creating a frozen conflict in Spain and prompting additional referenda on independence. It also will create a "state" with the euro as its currency, and 7 million people who could wind up retaining their European Union citizenship, while living outside the European Union.

Now is the time for the EU to be proactive and develop a policy for dealing with Catalonia's call for self-determination and possible independence. Its current path could well lead to chaos for Europe's grand experiment.

Dr. Paul R. Williams is the Rebecca I. Grazier Professor of Law and International Relations at American University and the co-founder and President of the Public International Law & Policy Group. He has published articles on the international law and policy ramifications of state secession.

Roushani Mansoor is a former Fulbright-Clinton Fellow to Bangladesh and a current Law Fellow at the Public International Law & Policy Group.

“How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe”

L’Atlantic Council, lligat a l’OTAN, adverteix Europa i es posiciona a favor d’una Catalunya independent

gener, Notícies

per araomai

El poderós think tank nord-americà, Atlantic Council, una organització estretament lligada a l’OTAN, assegura que Europa està tractant el tema de la independència com un assumpte intern d’Espanya i el Regne Unit, i que això és un error que corre el risc de provocar esquerdes  a la delicada unitat del continent, i que ara és el moment de que la UE sigui proactiva i desenvolupar una política per fer front a la crida de Catalunya per l’autodeterminació i la seva possible independència .
En un article amb un títol demolidor “How the Voters of Catalonia May Change Europe” (Com els votants catalans poden canviar Europa), afirma que Catalunya ha sol·licitat formalment al govern d’Espanya  que autoritzi un referèndum sobre la independència, i que Europa s’enfrontarà a un repte d’aquest any per al qual sembla no preparada, i recorda que tot i que Espanya s’ha oposat fermament al referèndum, els catalans estan segurs de seguir endavant.
Segueix dient que serà Europa, la que al final decidirà si Catalunya serà un Estat independent, i que la  fòbia del continent a la lliure determinació i la seva falta d’enfocament coherent dels nous Estats independents, els deixa mal preparats per prendre aquesta decisió, que posarà a prova el fonament mateix d’Europa.
I també treu tot valor al debat jurídic entre Espanya i Catalunya, sobre el dret de Catalunya a celebrar un referèndum i declarar la independència, que diu que és en gran mesura irrellevant. Si els catalans opten per la independència, aniran a buscar el reconeixement internacional com a estat independent basat en la voluntat de la gent, no en les disposicions de la Constitució Espanyola.
Adverteix que el dret internacional no permet ni prohibeix la celebració de referèndums pels estats que hi aspiren. Segons el dret internacional, un Estat ha de tenir un territori amb una població sotmesa al control d’un govern – criteris que Catalunya reunirà, sentencia.
I assegura que és poc probable que Europa en el seu conjunt  es negui al reconeixement de Catalunya, perquè això crearia un conflicte enquistat al cor del continent que drenaria el capital polític i els recursos econòmics d’una Espanya econòmicament fràgil, i que en molts països europeus  el no reconeixement seria percebut com anti-democràtic, i extremadament difícil de justificar, ja que més de dues dotzenes d’estats han aconseguit el reconeixement en els darrers vint anys, i que Escòcia és probable que s’uneixi aquesta llista.
Els objectius de l’Atlantic Council són tractar sobre qüestions de seguretat política i econòmica, promovent la  cooperació i la relació transatlàntica.

The Wall Street Journal:'Catalonia Asks Madrid for Power to Hold Referendum' #eu #politics #usa

 

The Wall Street Journal:'Catalonia Asks Madrid for Power to Hold Referendum' #eu #politics #usa

dijous, 16 gener de 2014

Resolution Offers Madrid Chance to Negotiate Conditions of Vote on Secession

By DAVID ROMÁN | The Wall Street Journal

Pro-independence protesters shout slogans in front of Catalonia's regional parliament as lawmakers voted inside, in Barcelona, Spain, on Thursday. Reuters

Catalonia's parliament asked the Spanish central government for authority to hold a referendum on whether the wealthy region should secede from Spain, a request immediately rebuffed in the latest jousting over a vote planned for Nov. 9.

Thursday's resolution to formally seek approval from the central government offered Madrid an opportunity to negotiate the conditions of a vote. But a spokesman said there had been no change in Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's vow to bar any balloting on the issue, which Madrid says would be unconstitutional. The regional government in Catalonia has said it plans to pursue the referendum regardless of Madrid's position.

The threat of Catalan secession has plagued Mr. Rajoy since the regional president, Artur Mas, first proposed a referendum in late 2012. Mr. Mas made the move after Mr. Rajoy rejected his plan to reduce the tax revenue that Catalonia transfers to poorer Spanish regions. A grass-roots Catalan movement in favor of independence has since gained strength, mobilizing hundreds of thousands of people in street demonstrations.

Marta Rovira, a member of the Catalan parliament for pro-independence party ERC, told lawmakers before Thursday's resolution that the request was meant to bolster the legal case for polling citizens about independence, with or without Madrid's approval.

"There are people who think this step is pointless, because they see it is pretty clear that the response will be negative," Ms. Rovira said. "But as the Spanish parliament declines to negotiate, this will only expose its stance to the world, and give us legitimacy to stay our course."

Carles Boix, a Princeton University political science professor who advises the Catalan government, said the resolution left open the possibility for both sides to avoid a confrontation. He noted that Spanish law empowers regional governments to hold nonbinding consultations, as opposed to referendums.

"The plan is not to hold a vote and then declare independence the next day," Mr. Boix said in a telephone interview from New Jersey. "Many things can happen beforehand, and even after a vote there would be room for discussion."

A spokeswoman for Mr. Rajoy said Thursday that even a nonbinding vote on independence would be illegal because such consultations by regional governments are limited to issues over which they have authority, and secession isn't one of them.

Thursday's resolution passed by a vote of 87 to 43, with leftist deputies joining lawmakers of the regional governing coalition in favor and most lawmakers representing Spain's national parties opposed. Three members of a small pro-independence bloc abstained on the grounds that no permission from Madrid is needed to hold a referendum.

Parties representing a majority in the regional parliament agreed in December on a referendum date and questions: Voters would be asked whether Catalonia should to be a "state," and those who mark their ballots "yes" will be asked whether that state should be independent.

Several recent polls indicate that nearly half the region's five million voters would say "yes" to both questions, and roughly one-third would vote no. The rest are undecided, and the risk that an independent Catalonia would be left out of the European Union, as recent statements by EU officials indicate, is widely viewed as a strong deterrent to secession.

Speaking in parliament Thursday, Albert Rivera, leader of a small, anti-independence party, said that Mr. Mas and his allies are setting up Catalan pro-independence forces for disappointment.

"All you're doing is pitting Catalans against each other," Mr. Rivera said, addressing Mr. Mas. "In the end, you'll have nothing left to do other than leave [office] and call an election."

Write to David Román at david.roman@wsj.com

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Reconnaissance de la Catalogne : ces 65 cartes qui en disent long...

Le 19 janvier à 6h00 par Jean-Luc Bobin | Mis à jour il y a 3 heures

La carte de la célèbre famille de cartographes hollandais parue en 1 634 à Amsterdam. Sa toponymie est d'une précision et d'une toponymie remarquable. 34 de ces 64 cartes ont été acquises par la communauté de communes du Conflent pour être affichées en mairie. PHOTO/© D.R

Ce sont des documents rares et précieux. Issus des plus prestigieux atlas européens des XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles. Tous représentent la Catalogne dans ses limites d'origine. Unique.
L'été dernier, l'exposition avait fait son petit effet. Présentée à l'occasion de l'Université catalane d'été (UCE), elle regroupait 65 cartes de Catalogne parues dans l'ensemble des plus prestigieux atlas européens des XVIIe et XVIIIe siècles. A une époque où la cartographie battait son plein. Aussi bien en France, en Allemagne, au Pays-Bas, en Autriche, en Angleterre, en Italie ou en Espagne. Cette exposition s'appuyait sur le colossal travail réalisé par le Barcelonais Jordi Estruga, "inventeur" de ce véritable trésor cartographique et réuni alors dans un livre. Ramon Gual, le fondateur des éditions Terra Nostra basées à Codalet, en publie aujourd'hui le catalogue que l'on peut dégoter, selon la formule consacrée, dans toutes les bonnes librairies du département. Question donc. Qu'ont-elles, finalement, de si exceptionnel ces fameuses cartes ?

En plein débat sur le négationnisme

"Il est intéressant de voir le traitement qui était réservé à la Catalogne par tous ces cartographes européens. Des érudits indiscutables. Qui nous considéraient tous à cette époque-là comme 'une Nation-Etat'. Jusque et y compris dans des périodes où nous avons perdu la condition d'Etat". La plus ancienne de ces cartes date de 1 602. La plus récente de 1 740. "Soit près de cent ans après le traité des Pyrénées", s'amuse Gual. "Et pendant toute cette période, tous ces atlas ont toujours représenté la Catalogne comme telle. Dans ses limites d'origine. Ce qui atteste qu'elle était reconnue ainsi par l'ensemble des états européens".
Passionné par le sujet et en plein débat sur le "Négationnisme de la Catalogne", qui fait rage en ce moment en Espagne, Ramon Gual et Jaume Sobrequès, directeur du centre d'histoire contemporaine de Barcelone et ancien président de l'UCE, s'enthousiasment à l'idée de redonner vie à ces 65 cartes à travers une édition limitée. La souscription lancée est bouclée en moins de trois mois.
Tirées à 1 000 exemplaires sur un papier semblable à celui de l'époque, elles ont été imprimées dans leur format d'origine. La plus petite fait 20 cm sur 30 cm. La plus grande, 1,80 m de large sur 1,60 m de haut. "Celle-ci est constituée de six feuilles. On n'en connaît qu'un seul exemplaire au monde. Elle provient d'un atlas hollandais et est conservée à la bibliothèque nationale de Paris." Outre leur intérêt historique, géographique et toponymique, ces documents ont également, aux yeux des indépendantistes, une haute valeur politique. "Car ils permettent, selon Ramon Gual, de tordre définitivement le cou à tous ceux qui sont enclins à affirmer que la Catalogne n'a jamais existé". Cartes à l'appui !

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Pyrénées Prades Barcelone Catalogne Espagne

 

Commentaires (16)

Alertez

Cat Nord

19 Janvier à 22:21

Gent, sembla impossible, sembla tan impossible com ho ha semblat desenes de vegades... però al cap i a la fi el que semblava utòpia s'ha convertit en realitat.
http://www.elpuntavui.cat/noticia/article/7-vista/8-articles/708916-era-impossible-segur.html
però qui sap què passarà demà?

Alertez

herbo

19 Janvier à 22:05

manolo ou manel naroni:les post de zoiseau,stephan66,jaume premier te remettent d aplomb.
ta catalogne n ajamais existe en tant qu etat.mets toi le dans la tronche et arrete de te faire bourrer le crane par des partis fachisants xenophobes.celui qui insulte içi c est toi,parcequ on est pas d accord avec ta pensee unique,celle "del rechazo al otro".t es bien petit.

Alertez

toni.cardona

19 Janvier à 21:49

@manel
Tu déquilles pas l'Espagne toi? Tu as conscience que les propos amenant de l'agit-prop catalaniste? et chargé d'émotions négatives pour l'hispanité. Tu as pas conscience de blesser?. T'as pas conscience que tu parles pas toujours avec ton cerveau, sinon avec autre chose, et que tu provoques des réponses par toujours comme tu aimes?
atenciò soc català i parlo català basta demagogia.

Alertez

JaumePremierduMonde

19 Janvier à 21:46

Cela fait longtemps que la Catalogne est reconnue en Espagne linguistiquement, culturellement, politiquement.
Les résultats, en voici quelques-uns :
1. Rapport d’Amnesty International, rubrique Spain/Regions, année 2013 :
https://www.amnesty.org/fr/region/spain/report-2012
"En janvier, le gouvernement catalan a abrogé le Code d’éthique de la police, qui portait application du Code européen d’éthique de la police. Le Comité d’éthique de la police, qui avait pour mission de recueillir et d’examiner les plaintes de particuliers au sujet du comportement de fonctionnaires de police, ainsi que d’évaluer le respect du Code d’éthique par les agents, a été suspendu après la démission de la plupart de ses membres." Le résultat ? En 2 :
2. Les Catalans parlent au Catalans : on voit sur cette video 10 courageux Mossos, police autonome catalane, en train de rouer de coups à mort un entrepreneur… catalan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGSExV4_fls
Benvinguts a tothom !

Alertez

stéphane6666T

19 Janvier à 21:24

On a les mêmes avec : la Sicile, la Galice, la Provence, l'Etrurie, la Haute Egypte...
"Négationnisme" : le terme désigne la négation de la Shoah.
Les catalanistes n'ont pas de limite à l'indécence.
Ah oui : l'Espagne est le pays le plus libéral du monde, et la Catalogne a sa police autonome (qui cogne dur, tue des entrepreuneurs catalans à l'occasion), son ministère de la normalisation linguistique, son ministère de l'interdiction du castillan et son gouvernement raciste officiel, comme le prouve la récente rencontre du leader catalan Artur Mas et du chef de la ligue lombarde xénophobe - ce n'est pas moi qui le dit c'est le journal catalaniste Lavanguardia : http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20140116/54399209966/icv-mas-reciba-lider-liga-norte-xenofobo.html
En Espagne, la seule région où l'on craint pour les libertés individuelles, c'est la Communauté Autonome Catalane.
Ah, de l'air... quel vent frais nous vient du catalanisme...

Alertez

zoiseau

19 Janvier à 20:57

manel 19 Janvier à 19:37
Vous avez tort d'agresser hebo, vous devriez au contraire le remercier !
Sans lui tous ces articles sur la catalogne resteraient sans le moindre écho et vous seriez seuls à débattre et ronronner entre-vous dans l'indifférence la plus totale.

Alertez

manel

19 Janvier à 19:37

et oui
la catalogne n'est pas une invention
elle existe depuis longtemps
la preuve :
sa langue qui se maintient
malgré l'agressivité des pouvoirs centraux espagnols.....

Alertez

manel

19 Janvier à 19:35

herbo son seul objectif
déquiller
déquiller
déquiller

Alertez

manel

19 Janvier à 19:34

herbo
la sentinelle
toujours là !
a distribuer les bons points
les insultes....
l'homme qui sait tout
qui se permet tout
le super homme
a force de manger de l'herbe.....
sa crédibilité est aussi grande que le nombre de copain qu'il a en catalogne....

Alertez

herbo

19 Janvier à 18:03

 

Commentaires (16)

Alertez

Cat Nord

19 Janvier à 17:15

doncs avui l'important és saber què vol el poble, què volen els ciutadans.

Alertez

toni.cardona

19 Janvier à 16:15

@cat On s'en tape si La Catalogne a existé ou pas. Moi du moins.
Ce que je souligne c'est l'instrumentalisation politique des histoires du moyen-age. Typique du national-romantisme et guère utile pour dialoguer sérieusement aujourd'hui.

Alertez

Cat Nord

19 Janvier à 16:00

Tonierbo, endavant teniu un nou text per a vos esplatir.

Catalunya no ha existit mai, és una llegenda, un mite i no existirà mai, és una idea de sciència-ficció, un fantasma d'independentistes, separatistes, franquistes, hitleristes, maoistes, masoquistes, somiatistes o sominatruites, .... la llista és llarga per a anomenar una cosa irreal.
De fet aquestes cartes no existeixen, les va dibuicar el Gual. És això, el Ramon Gual és l'inventor de tota aquesta història.
i quan haureu dit tot això, argumentat, ben argumentat, acabareu per "arriba espanya"?

Alertez

herbo

19 Janvier à 11:28

els segadors:comme son nom l indique,un cartographe etudie la geographie.
une region catalane qui a existe geographiquement depuis des centaines de siecles,je n en doute pas,le valles pir aussi,la camargue aussi,la vendee aussi mais de la a dire que c etait considere comme un etat nation,les mots qu utilisent les independantistes,ça porte legerement a confusion.a cette epoque la,la notion d etat nation n existait pas.
on n en est pas a une betise pres.si les catalanistes doivent tous les jours prouver qu il y aviat une region catalane,ça vole pas bien haut.marteler tous les jours la meme rangaine,pas la peine d insister,vous allez convaincre vos partisans mais ce qui ont 2 doigts de jugeotte ne se laisseront pas influencer parce ces affirmations.demain,vous allez remonter au neolythique,je suppose?on est au XXIº siecle,je le rappelle humblement.

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Els Segadors

19 Janvier à 11:10

Voilà un article qui va faire couler beaucoup d'encre. En particulier, chez ceux dont la Catalogne n'existe pas en tant qu'un Etat puisque tout simplement région Espagnole et fortement indépendante de Madrid.

:-)))

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toni.cardona

19 Janvier à 10:53

Article exemplaire. Le Nationalisme est issu du mouvement romantique. Le rapport au passé, et surtout au moyen-age, est une composante essentielle du romantisme.
C'est le moyen-age, instrumentalisé à des fins de propagande politique. C'est l'histoire transformé en mythe fondateur. C'est indispensable dans tous discours nationaliste.

Bien sur l'histoire en question n'a rien à voir avec la situation actuelle du monde, mais c'est tellement romantique de se voir inscrit dans une légende, une épopée, un combat si authentique et glorieux. Avec ces bons et ces méchants. De se sentir chevalier blanc, pur et glorieux, bon avec les faibles, intrépide et
courageux contre les méchants (espagnols). Puis trahi et vaincu lâchement.
MAIS Le combat n'est pas fini. De courageux et téméraires paladins on reprit le chemin de la vérité du courage et de la vertu.Que faire, Face à la volonté d'un peuple (surtout catalan!) il n'y a rien qui puisse l’arrêter, la justice triomphera.